Ten years ago I was living in a little terrace house in Abbotsford, near the Convent. I loved it, except for the stale waffle-cone stink that smothered the whole suburb once or twice a week, slipping into the house through the gaps in the doors and windows.

Almost daily, I’d drive past the source of the smell: a conglomeration of red-brick buildings, concrete grain silos, towering exhaust stacks, orange-strobe-lit loading docks, officious boom gates and security huts that together make up Carlton United Breweries. The site has a certain Willy Wonka mystique for many beer-drinkers, but to me it was just an annoyingly large, impenetrable landmark to be circumnavigated on my way through to Victoria Street.

Something more interesting was happening on Duke Street, a narrow industrial strip crammed with mechanics, panel beaters, electrical wholesalers and at least one brothel. I kept noticing a particular roller door thrown up, with pallets of unlabelled beer bottles piled high inside, and a few 20-something-year-old blokes pottering about between them. The little warehouse was located in CUB’s literal shadow, but obviously wasn’t part of it.

One day my curiosity finally got the better of me. I pulled over to say hi to the scruffy-looking guys, who’d dragged some beaten up share-house couches onto the footpath to catch some sun. They generously offered to show me around inside, and I learned this was not just their new brewery – they also lived on-site. This was my first introduction to Moon Dog Craft Brewery and the trio of down-to-earth larrikins behind it: brothers Jake and Josh Uljans, and their mate Karl van Buuren.

I’ve since watched Moon Dog – once a tiny, idiosyncratic business – grow into one of Australia’s largest and most successful independent breweries, with a global reach and upwards of 150 employees. It still has a presence in Abbotsford, but the focus has shifted to an enormous 12,000-square-metre site in Preston – an impenetrable landmark of similar scale to CUB. And yet, Moon Dog has never lost that original couch-on-footpath spirit. It remains possessed with an inimitable sense of fun and individuality, from its punny, highly creative beers to its much-talked-about Preston bar, complete with tropical lagoon, waterfall and hidden tiki bar.

This is the story of the decade that was, as told by Moon Dog’s three founders.

Left to right: Jake Uljans, Josh Uljans, Karl van Buuren | Photography: Pete Dillon

Karl I started at Ivanhoe Grammar’s Doreen campus in 2000. I was the new kid in year 11. I remember going into the office on my first day and they said, “Alright, we’ve assigned someone to show you around.” And it was Josh. That’s where we met, and we’ve been mates since. We did high school and university together, lived together for a while, then started Moon Dog with Jake.

Josh Jake and I grew up in Hurstbridge. Karl grew up in Strathewen, so even further out. Jake and I started home brewing at a very young age, when mum bought us a home-brew kit. I reckon I was 14 and Jake was 17, or something like that. And I’m sure she just loved the idea of the science or, I don’t know, just trying to keep us entertained. Yeah, that’s the age when we would have made our first “beer”. I don’t know whether it was even close to drinkable. I was probably four years off legal drinking age –

Karl I’m sure you drank it anyway [laughs].

Josh Yeah, we tried to drink it. So yeah, that would have been the very, very start of it. And it was titled J&J United Breweries. And this is going back to, I guess, about 1997 or 1998. Does that sound about right, Jako?

Jake Yeah, around about then. I do remember some of those early beers. We knew they weren’t any good. But we thought it was fantastic, anyway – if only for the ability to get 20 litres of beer that that we otherwise wouldn’t have been able to acquire.

Josh I wouldn’t say that we had any real idea of any of the science or the complexity that goes into making delicious beer, at that stage. It was kind of a flash in the pan, J&J. It would have just been a Cooper’s home-brew kit. Mix this into this, boil up some water, stir it around, chuck it in a tub, throw in some yeast and see what happens. It wasn’t until uni and the early stages of entering the workforce that we got into all-grain brewing and started to come up with the idea of creating a business out of it.

Josh We were at Melbourne uni together. I was doing arts and science, and Karl was doing biomed. I was working at the Diamond Creek Tavern bottle shop, the Snake Pit, and I used to love getting hold of all the different beers that I possibly could, which back then was maybe Chimay or a Budvar, some of those classic European beers that were a bit different to what we had available in Australia at that time. That was the starting point for me, opening my eyes to what beer could be. What about you, Karl? I remember you were a bit of a Little Creatures Bright Ale fan.

Karl Yeah, when we were drinking at the Great Britain Hotel [now known as Harlow] in Richmond, they had Little Creatures Bright on tap and that’s where we’d go after work, once or twice a week. Before that, it was all just Carlton Draught and that. Seeing what you can actually pack into a beer and still have it really drinkable and really delicious, that was the eye-opener for me.

Josh I bought Jake an all-grain brewing set-up that we got from Greensborough Home Brewing, welded together out of old CUB kegs, as was customary at that time. We didn’t know how we were going to do it, we didn’t really understand it or what was involved in it, but we jumped into it headfirst. The three of us used to spend every weekend playing around and learning what it is to make beer from scratch.

Karl At that time I think I was working at CGU Insurance. I was doing business analysis, project management, that kind of stuff, which has been invaluable to how we run the business now. I was living with Josh, going to their mum’s house every weekend. Brewing a beer on the all-grain set-up was a ritual for at least three or four years.

Josh I lived in an apartment in South Yarra and it wasn’t very well set up. Living out in Hurstbridge, Mum had plenty of space for us to dedicate a room to it. I can remember heaps and heaps of the beers that we tried to make on that set-up. The first one was a Little Creatures Bright Ale clone. And we made a beer that was aptly named Fail Ale, because it was just vile. And then, as we got our heads around it, we started to get more and more interested in taking a different approach.

Fermentation tanks at Moon Dog World | Photography: Pete Dillon

Josh We started experimenting with different flavours and different ingredients and different processes, and looking towards the boundary-pushing breweries in the US, Belgium and Scandinavia – breweries like Dogfish Head in Delaware, that really led the charge for big, hoppy beers and interesting approaches that were unlike anything that we’d seen in the Australian beer landscape at that point in time. This was heading towards the late 2000s. So we were throwing spices at beers, and we bought some bourbon barrels on eBay and put small amounts of beer into them, just to see how they’d come out, and we were using lots of fruits, like Mum’s stewed cherry plums. Anything we could come up with that sounded like an amazing concept for a beer, we would have a crack at it.

Jake Back then there were local breweries doing some really good beers. But in terms of pushing boundaries – doing really interesting styles, barrel aging – none of that was happening. Everything was within quite a set number of styles. Even finding a dark ale back then wasn’t that easy, let alone big barrel-aged imperial stouts and things like that. Seeing those interesting beers from the US and other international breweries, it was such a contrast with what was happening in Australia, and we thought, “Someone needs to be doing it here. Why not us?”

Josh Yeah, it just it felt like it needed to be done in Australia. And that’s what pushed us towards starting to work on what would ultimately become Moon Dog. I had a Bachelor of Arts in politics and history – very transferable skills [laughs]. Jake was studying law, after having completed a bachelor of arts in politics and a bachelor of music in composition and performance. Karl had done –

Karl It was an information systems degree, and then chemistry and maths.

Josh So, semi-transferrable skills [laughs]. But, generally speaking, an absolutely awful set of skills to start a business. Terrible, useless. Karl and I had merged into a similar kind of professional pathway, of project management and business analysis.

Karl We worked for AGL Energy at that time. We were there full-time when we first started Moon Dog, when we first got the lease on our factory in Abbotsford, and then we slowly worked to part-time and then started at Moon Dog full-time after about three years.

A mash tun at Moon Dog World | Photography: Pete Dillon

Karl We were looking for a site for a few months, but generally we knew we wanted to be in the Richmond/Abbotsford/inner-east Melbourne area. We figured that’s where all the bars and bottle shops and pubs that would be interested in us were. And then when we saw it, we fell in love with it. It was not on a main road, the trucks could get down there, it was cheap [laughs].

Jake The fact that there was already a large brewery in in Abbotsford, CUB, gave us a bit of comfort – that we’d be going through this process with some certainty that we’d be able to get planning over the line.

Karl How could the council say no, really?

Josh We’d put together a business plan and we had an idea about what we were going to do. We’d been slowly saving up a little bits of money and buying old, second-hand stainless steel tanks off eBay, mostly. And we bought a fermenter off Alibaba, from a Chinese fabricator. Slowly, throughout 2008 and 2009, we got little bits and pieces together. But it only really became real in November 2010, when we signed the lease on 17 Duke Street in Abbotsford.

Karl Yeah it was, “We’ve signed a contract, that means we’re on the hook now for 10 years.”

Josh That was the point where it went from us still probably not being 100 per cent sure that we were actually doing it to going, “Okay, we’re in, and we have to make this work.” Karl and I started living in there and building stuff – learning how to weld, learning about plumbing and electrical stuff. None of us come from very affluent families. We had no fucking money. Or an awfully small amount of money to start up something like a brewery.

Karl We saved a lot of money living there and didn’t have to pay rent elsewhere. But the concept we had meant banks generally would basically tell us to fuck off. There was essentially no way we were ever going to get funding.

Josh It was so good living there. It was so much fun.

Karl We had a few big parties in the warehouse, with lots of mates.

Josh Most people were bemused by the arrangement. A few people just didn’t get us. And a lot of people just, I guess, loved that we were doing something different and exciting that not many people do when they’re 25 or 26 years old. We weren’t too focused on what people were saying or thinking.

Karl A lot of the time we did Moon Dog work at AGL [laughs]. Everyone was well aware that we had this going on elsewhere.

Josh Except one of the managers, who found out about it from an article in the Age.

Karl Oh yeah, he used to get upset at us. We were living in a brewery for, I think, 14 months and we didn’t have a shower. There was a toilet, there was no shower or bathroom or kitchen or anything like that. And so we would rock up to work at like nine o’clock, put our stuff down and then say, “We’re going to have a shower.” And then I’d go have a shower, and then Josh would go have a shower, and then we’d have to go and get coffee.

Jake I wasn’t going to be living at the brewery, even if there was space. That wasn’t really an option for me.

Kegs at Moon Dog World | Photography: Pete Dillon

Jake Once we’d started, we were doing these small brews in 50-litre kegs and just started sending those off to some of the more progressive venues that were really interested in what we were doing. This is before we were actually putting any beers in bottles and doing the full production runs. And those beers were quite interesting and experimental beers. Ultimately, we’d go out and visit the venues and drink our own beer on tap, which is always pretty exciting.

Karl Biero on Little Lonsdale Street in the city was our first customer. They had these things called beer vaults, where they’d empty exotic beers into a tube and then serve it out of that.

Josh They were really supportive of us. They really got behind us and we had some pretty kick-arse parties there and got to put on kegs of gingerbread imperial brown ale and pumpkin spice stout. That gave us an opportunity, in a very, very small way, to start to introduce people to what we were ultimately going to be. It was really exciting and really fun. One of our great mates, Eric, was also running the Royston Hotel at that stage.

Karl That was the first pub to put one of our light boxes at the front, I believe, after we had two or three of them made up. I’m pretty sure it’s still there.

Jake A big part of what’s made Moon Dog successful is that we’ve effectively had to do everything ourselves. We didn’t just engage a bunch of consultants to come in and fill in the skills gaps, because the skills gaps were basically everything. That’s definitely the hard way to do it. It’s not something you’d necessarily recommend to everyone. We made a lot of mistakes, but we learnt through those experiences and it’s made us really resilient as a business, I think. It’s made us really understand, from a granular level, all the different parts of the business. Josh and Karl were going out and doing the deliveries, so they got a pretty good idea of what’s involved in interacting with the customers. And you’d get intimately acquainted with the accounts, because you’d be doing them all yourselves.

Josh Alongside that, we weren’t set up with taking on other people’s capital, through debt or equity. We didn’t have any obligations through the business, or individually with families, in that early stage. We were still working, full-time to part-time. That allowed us to take a bigger risk with who the business was, what the brand was about, what the products were about, and do things that were not as straightforward from a commercial standpoint. But because we didn’t have those kind of encumbrances, we were able to just be ourselves and do things our own way.

Josh The name Moon Dog came about when I was over in the US, visiting one of my mates in New York. There was this bloke, he read a poem to us that he’d written, called Moondog, Moondog. We had no idea what he was talking about, but he gave us the poem in exchange for my mate’s shoes. It was a shocking poem [laughs]. But it was about this amazing musician called Moondog, who I’d never heard of. Louis Hardin was his name. And he was a busker in New York, in the ’60s and ’70s. And he was blind, and he dressed up every day as a Viking and he would busk on the corner of 45th and something-something street, and he invented his own instruments. I don’t know how he cobbled them together, but he literally made up his own instruments and then composed this amazing, really out-there music that was completely different to anything I’d ever heard before, or Karl and Jake had ever heard before. Moondog’s story sounded a lot like what we were about to embark on. And the name just had a nice ring to it, as well.

Karl The first commercial release we did was a cognac-barrel-aged double IPA called Skunkworks. We poured whole hop cones into a cognac barrel, put a massive 10 per cent double IPA into it, and aged it for a couple of months. And that was the first beer we released in bottles, with a proper label.

Josh The next beer that we made was Henry Fjord’s Girthsome Fjord, which was a Belgian-American India brown ale.

Karl That’s still my favourite beer. It’s a really cool concept. The idea was to get three distinct styles that worked really well on their own, and then just kind of smash them all together into one beer. It was an English brown ale, a Belgian dark ale and an American IPA, with elements from those three styles combined into the one beer. And it was delicious.

Jake And then there was Black Lung, immediately after that. A bourbon-barrel-aged smoky stout.

Josh And Perverse Sexual Amalgam, named after a classic line from Seinfeld – something that amused us, but no one else would have any idea about. That was the first beer we ever brewed at Duke Street, the first crack we had at the original milk-vat brewhouse that we’d cobbled together, in July 2011. It was a black wild ale aged in bourbon barrels with cherry plums. And it was our first crack at a wild ferment. So there were some pretty out-there beers made in the first three months.

Josh My cousin Robin is an amazing director and cinematographer. He did a bunch of videos for us, right from the beginning – like the original brew day for Perverse Sexual Amalgam. We wanted to make concept-driven beers, beers where there was more to it than just the liquid itself, that there was a bit of a story to it, with lots of references to things that amused us, like Zoolander. We did this one video where we wanted to talk about what the beer was, and we dressed up as coal miners –

Karl ’Cos we had black lung.

Josh It was shithouse [laughs]. But you live and learn, don’t you?

Josh The scale of what we were doing was really not very big – maybe 70 or 80 cases per batch – and we’d hand-deliver them out to specialty bottle shops. We’d post on Twitter when we were putting out a new beer and seven or eight people would see it. They’d be stoked [laughs]. And so that was kind of the routine we were in for the first year and a half, maybe even two years.

Karl Yeah, of essentially just bringing out a new beer every month.

Josh The first big changes for the business happened in 2014, four years after we started. Karl and I had moved out of the brewery a bit before that, into a little apartment in Richmond.

Karl The lease for the building next door to Moon Dog, 19 Duke Street, came up. And the decision was made then and there: “We need to take this now, push our expansion plans forward and open a bar. If we don’t do it right now, someone else will take the lease and we won’t be able to do it for another five years.” So it really was a bit of a kick in the right direction. We took it and moved all the production and storage in there.

Josh And we bought a new German bottling line, which was awesome. It was a massive step forward in terms of kind of product quality and consistency. Up until that point we’d been bottling on this old rotary Italian olive-oil filler. Nowadays you wouldn’t let anyone go near it because it’d be like a Worksafe ad.

Karl Yeah, it’d break so many laws [laughs].

Josh That was awful. But we did it to ourselves. We didn’t subject anyone else to it.

Karl We went full-time in 2014 and hired our first brewer at the end of that year, too. It meant that it wasn’t just me and Josh brewing. We could spread it around and do more shifts. We got Adrian McNulty from 3 Ravens, who was the head brewer there. And he’s still with us today.

Josh The bar, Moon Dog OG, opened at number 17 that year. Across the road from us was CUB, where they did all their draught-beer servicing. The first taps we got were an old test kit – they gave it to us for a song. We managed to get that bar up and running and it had a great vibe. There was nothing particularly amazing about it. It was in an old warehouse. And yeah, there was a little brewery at the back. Again, we had fucking no money, even though we were three or four years into it. It was always smell-of-an-oily-rag type stuff.

Karl I’d pick up couches on the side of the road as I’d drive past them.

Josh But Moon Dog’s an edgy, urban, grungy brand. So it allows us to be cheapskates with our furniture procurement, which is good [laughs].

Karl A lot of the brewers from CUB would come in, a lot of the fitters and machine guys.

Josh Kev, who’s now our brewery ops director, he was working at CUB at the time. He used to pop in there. It was a fun place and everyone was welcome. And yeah, after all that – going full-time, getting a new bottling line, hiring Adrian, opening the bar – it was suddenly a very, very different looking business, with a way for a wider audience to experience the beers. It was still a very, very small business, but it was paying our way.

Josh It was probably around then that we started toying with the idea of having a core range of beers. We wanted to keep on making the new and exciting and interesting beers that were intrinsically part of our DNA, but we also wanted to make beers that you could drink a bunch of.

Karl Something you could drink watching the cricket or watching the footy. We didn’t really have any of those beers.

Josh We had a bar, but the lowest ABV beer that was available was like fucking 6.5 per cent, and people were pissed. So pissed. And having a great time. But, you know, sometimes people want to get into a session. And so we wanted to make something that was a bit more appropriate for that. Rather than making a pale ale or a golden ale or something like that, we wanted to make something that was a little bit different. So we went for a hoppy lager, the Love Tap Double Lager. And that was our first crack at a core range.

Karl Something that we’d brew more than once [laughs].

Josh We started in four-packs. It got distributed a little bit more widely and got some taps dedicated to it. But it was still a 5.9 per cent dry-hopped lager. It was a completely ridiculous beer. But it was pretty storied. It kept on evolving and changing, and we never really wanted to let it go because we loved it very much. We did something called the Summer of Love Tap, where if you bought a six-pack of it, you could choose to get thongs or a thong [G-string]. It was fucking marketing gold [laughs].

Karl And our model was a dude. It was Geoff, modeling a G-string [laughs]. We probably couldn’t get away with that now.

Josh That beer eventually made its way down to a more approachable five per cent lager, then morphed into the current Moon Dog Lager. That’s a good example of a really bad idea that we just persisted with for a really long time.

Loading pallets at Moon Dog World

Karl The big shift then was the brewery expansion in 2016 and 2017. We got the lease for a third building, 21 Duke Street, and bought a second-hand 50 hectolitre brewhouse from De Bortoli up in Griffith. That was really when we were able to get our volumes up and get our brand really running. We’d tinkered with these core range beers and brought out Love Tap. But it wasn’t until we had the ability to brew a lot more volume that we went into the Old Mate Pale Ale and Mack Daddy Dark Ale.

Josh We had, in that site, ultimately about 2.5 million litres of annual production capability. That’s a big brewery for a very small asbestos shed. And we brought on the big national sales team, and I think most of those people are still with us. So that’s where the business really started to accelerate. Bit by bit, it kind of professionalised.

Josh We built that expansion brewery at 21 Duke Street on the basis of a five-year plan that was gonna last us from 2016 to 2021.

Karl We originally had four fermenters there. But in less than 18 months, we then had 16.

Josh The site was completely maxed out. And Duke Street was becoming more and more of a challenge, logistically, to be able to get the trucks in and out. And we probably were not super popular with our neighbours, just constantly having heavy rigid trucks lined up the street.

Karl And the area was changing. The apartment blocks had started going up. All the crappy old factories were turning into a fancy high-end furniture stores and cafes and doggy day-care centres. Having those trucks constantly going in and out, the spent grain silos, and the smells and all that sort of stuff of a heavy industry –

Josh We filled the street with stinky spent grain at least a dozen times with a malfunctioning blow-off valve. And we’re talking 10 cubic metres of stench, just flooding its way down this road. It became clear that there was an end to the useful life of that site. And it was coming sooner rather than later. First and foremost, we needed to solve the beer-making side of things. And that put us on the pathway to finding the Preston site – a site that was little bit more fit for purpose, that would accommodate making a lot more beer and let us grow into something, rather than perpetually growing out of something.

Josh We started on that journey at the start of 2018. Preston seemed like a really good area for us, even though we looked at a whole bunch of different inner industrial areas. High Street was awesome. Plenty Road, there were heaps of great bars around there. And a lot of our employees were kind of living around there or moving towards that kind of area. We looked at a bunch of warehouses around there. And the one we ended up at was actually the first one we inspected. It just seemed like the worst possible idea for us. It was way too big, huge. It had a big asbestos roof. And it was filled with egg cartons. There were 20 million egg cartons in this warehouse, if you can imagine that.

Karl You can’t imagine it. You can’t imagine this amount of egg cartons.

Josh The whole place, from front to back, was piled two pallets high with egg cartons. The sound baffling was incredible. No one could hear you scream. In our heads, we wanted to make a brewery and we wanted to have a bar alongside it. And we wanted it to be in a great location. We decided that this site wasn’t for us, for all these reasons. But the young real estate agents, they just kept at us about it. Because obviously they had a big commission on the line.

Karl Whenever we’d go to another place they’d be like, “What do you reckon about that Preston site again?” [laughs]

Josh And to their credit, they fucking got us across the line with it. We threw a bunch of floor plans at it and went, “Oh – ”

Karl “We can actually make something of the space.”

Josh But what it required was for us to build a bar that was way bigger than we’d ever envisaged. And so we had to make it. It was like, “If we’re gonna make a big bar and stick it on a poultry-processing industrial strip – ”

Karl What’s the opposite of “the Paris end”?

Josh “ – it’d have to be a pretty amazing bar.” And so we started thinking, “What can we do to make it an incredible place for people, that’s going to be a real draw?” The site was an old car-parts manufacturer and there was a whole heap of old plant equipment in there. We removed all that, replaced the roof and got it back to a kind of blank canvas for us to start working on. We got the keys in December 2018 and opened Moon Dog World in October 2019.

Jake We committed to the lease and the equipment before we’d actually got funding in place. There’s nothing like having your balls on the line to really motivate you to get the deal done.

Building Moon Dog World, March 2019

Josh From the moment we opened the doors, the place was just full and heaving. Somehow we still managed – in such a big space, on such a larger scale than anything we’ve done before – to keep the same kind of Moon Dog vibe and give people that experience that’s quintessentially us. It’s a different site to OG but it’s got the same kind of vibes.

Karl Yeah, the same kind of comfort and welcoming. The media coverage was absolutely crazy. The messages that we were sending really resonated with people. It was the “adult theme park”, it was a place where people could not just sit and have beers, have wines and have food, but sit by the lagoon or get tucked away in a tiki bar. And you could do different things every time you came. People just seemed to go bananas about that. They loved that concept.

Josh I think what probably really resonates with people is that it’s different. It’s such a unique experience that’s not working off someone else’s formula. It’s something so novel, and I think people’s minds were kind of blown by something like this being in Melbourne and being in Preston.

Karl We had spots on Channel 9, Channel 7, ABC News, ABC other things. We had the Age, Herald Sun, Broadsheet, Time Out – everyone was running information, especially leading up to the opening. And the opening was a big night.

Josh It was. We were slammed. And we apologise to anyone that didn’t get their meal or had a 40-minute wait at the bar.

Karl We had to double the number of deep-fryers in the kitchen, just to keep up. We had no idea it was gonna be like that.

Josh The brewing capacity at Preston is around 10 to 15 million litres per year. Moon Dog now is a more amazing business than any of us probably could ever have imagined it would be.

Karl Taking into account Fizzer hard seltzer production as well, it bumps up a little bit.

Josh Yeah. So it’s maybe five or six times the capacity of Duke Street. We haven’t made that much beer yet – there are always things that limit how much you can ultimately make, like trucks going in and out – but it’s a big brewery, with a really, really good team of people running it. The beer’s fucking delicious, and it’s nice now to be in a position where we can just keep on growing, without having to constantly change the shape of the business. As much as I enjoy being in a constant state of flux and chaos, it’s nice to have a bit of stability.

Josh If in three years’ time we have to do another brewery project, we’ll probably be sufficiently recovered from this one – it’s given us a bit more of a break than in the past. The business can just run, grow and be efficient. And we’ve got some really exciting new things pushing the business in a completely different direction than we ever thought we’d be going. The hospitality side of Moon Dog World shutting down during Covid – and all our fellow Melbourne hospitality businesses closing down – forced us to be a bit more creative and come up with some things that we hadn’t really focused on before.

Josh We’ve now got a pretty significant online and subscription business, which we’d never really planned to do. And in 2020, we put our toes into the water with entering the hard seltzer space. It’s been fantastic for us. And now, all of a sudden, we’re about to be an alcoholic post-mix company – something that no one has done before. It’s new, exciting and it’s been a massive challenge. We think that it’s going to, to some extent, revolutionise beverage dispensing in pubs and bars. And it didn’t exist 18 months ago, even in concept. I don’t know what next 10 years, or even five years, looks like for us. But what I’m really confident in saying is we’re having a really great time and we want to keep on doing it. We’ve still got a lot of stuff that we want to achieve with the business. Karl and I are 37, which is not particularly old. Jake’s 40 now, so that’s pretty old.

Karl Yeah, Josh and I have carved our own roles in this business now – essentially the same stuff that we’ve been good at – throughout the last 10 years. We’re doing the projects, we’re doing the expansion stuff, we’re doing the really fun things that allow the business to change and grow and stay relevant. I think that’s not going to change. That’s what we enjoy and that’s what we’re good at.